Redefining Outcomes: Success Stories From LTAP™ Alumni pt.2
This is part 2 of a special 2-part episode week on the Unreal Results podcast. In this episode, you’ll hear from more alumni who have gone through the LTAP™ courses and Revitalize Mentorship program. The two alumni you’ll hear on this specific episode, are a specialized Pilates instructor and an athletic trainer who share their motivations for joining the LTAP™, their experiences, and the transformations they’ve seen in their practices. They also discuss how they have been integrating the LTAP™ with various populations beyond athletes, how it has improved patient outcomes, and how it redefined their approach to assessment and treatment. If you’re looking to get faster client results and transform your practice, you won’t want to miss this episode.
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Sign up for LTAP™ Level 1 online HERE!
Connect with Stephanie on Instagram
Connect with Beth on Instagram
Considering the viscera as a source of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction is a great way to ensure a more true whole body approach to care, however it can be a bit overwhelming on where to start, which is exactly why I created the Visceral Referral Cheat Sheet. This FREE download will help you to learn the most common visceral referral patterns affecting the musculoskeletal system. Download it at www.unrealresultspod.com
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Anna Hartman: Hey there, and welcome. I'm Anna Hartman, and this is Unreal Results, a podcast where I help you get better outcomes and gain the confidence that you can help anyone, even the most complex cases. Join me as I teach about the influence of the visceral organs and the nervous system on movement, pain, and injuries, all while shifting the paradigm of what whole body assessment and treatment really looks like.
I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in.
Hey, hey, and welcome to the Unreal Results podcast. This week, I've got something special for you. Number one, we're doing two podcasts. So, today, we're doing The podcast drops, that's Wednesday, and then Friday will be part two, and this, these episodes are going to be special too because you're going to be hearing from the, a few of the alumni of the LTAP level one courses and, or the Revitalize Mentorship.
I invited these practitioners, professionals to come and chat and share their experiences with us. Sort of looking back on why they decided to enroll in the LTAP Level 1, like what problems that they were having with, that they were hoping to find solutions for, or what inspired them to learn in this new lens of view.
And then what's happening now, now that they're implementing it into their practice, they're What kind of results are they're seeing with their patients? What, are their patients saying, especially the ones that have been with them for a while, you know, um, just overall sort of wanting to hear like how learning in this new paradigm working with the LTAP, how it has helped their practice, helped their, you know, whatever it was.
Like some of them will be talking about how they were burnt out at work and like kind of bored. And some of them will talk about how they felt like. They were treating the whole body, but maybe they weren't considering the viscera and the nervous system other ones will say that they Had considered the nervous system and the viscera maybe learned from some other people but didn't really know how to assimilate it into a more biomechanical orthopedic practice And sort of relate it back to the big picture It's going to be professionals that are in all different fields.
So you'll hear from some physical therapists, athletic trainers, um, massage therapists, movement practitioners. You'll hear from some practitioners that are working only in person hands on. And then you'll hear from some practitioners who actually utilize this in the virtual space. So it should give you a great idea of sort of like what it looks like in practice and the types of clients people work from or anywhere from, you know, athletes, youth athletes, collegiate, professional athletes to
regular people, don't work at a desk, active aging population, the weekend warrior, scoliosis, spinal cord injury, neurologic patients. Like literally the spectrum of ages and vocations and like focuses. And so, um, I thought it would be special to hear from somebody other than me. Um, I also wanted to say too, uh, before we dive in, one of the things that often comes up, especially, um, When I teach the missing link or the results cheat code that just ended this past week, a lot of people are coming in for the first time into this ecosystem.
Maybe they haven't followed me for a while. Maybe they have, but like, it's their first sort of like go through this new lens of view. And I always warn everyone at the beginning, like get ready, like buckle your seatbelts because we're going for a ride. We're going on an adventure that's going to sort of challenge some deeply held beliefs that you have about how the body works and challenge how you go about working with your clients.
And Whether you're ready for it or not, I can, I warn people all the time and they're still sort of not ready for the sort of dissonance and the like the mind fuck, to be honest, that it is entering into this new paradigm because actually as one of my alumni just said on the interview with her today is like once you see it, you can't unsee it.
This is like once you're in, you're in. And there's no going backwards. Once you see this paradigm, once you really truly look at the whole organism in front of you instead of just the biomechanics, just the body, it's like, Oh, we're doing this. And sometimes when that happens, people can feel really overwhelmed with the new information.
Now, number one. The way I've created the courses actually, believe it or not, are trying to minimize the amount of overwhelm and minimize the dissonance involved with adopting a completely new paradigm. This is why I'm very big on practical application. And taking action and just doing it, learning the techniques and going through it and implementing it with your people so you can see it for yourself.
Because the whole purpose is I'm teaching you techniques in order to understand some new principles about how the body works. Then once you understand those principles, not only can you make up your own new techniques, but now you're at a better place in your head where you can Learn the deeper like, well, why, why did that happen?
How is this connected? Then we get to really dive into the anatomy. And if I just started out with anatomy and just started out with a theory, it would be like even more overwhelming because when we start out with a lot of thinking, whenever we engage our very cognitive thinking brain, it can also sort of.
paralyze us and, and, and support inaction because it, it feels like so much information, not sure how to compute it. And so we get in this analysis paralysis type mode. And then we feel like, Oh, in order to proceed, we have to understand it better. And I'm here to tell you that you don't. And it may feel this, not even me, this, a new paradigm feels very overwhelming.
and very scary at times and because it sort of doesn't force you to change your treatment techniques, but change your treatment strategy. And whether you are aware of your strategy to begin with or not, it forces you to do things in a different operating. system than you're used to and that feels scary and it can make you feel nervous in front of your patients and nervous just like figuring it out and like, you know, bumbling over things, but also know that it's okay because you're not alone.
Everyone goes through this little bit of a learning curve. You don't have to be nervous and scared about it too much because that's where I come in. I've, I've helped over the last few years, over 400 practitioners go through this course and implement the work and make it make sense and not so scary and not so hard and not with such a high barrier of cognitive dissonance.
So I'm here to support you. It's not like a traditional continuing education course where you go to a class and you interact with the teacher during the class and then once the class is done you never talk to them again. That's not how I work. Relationships are a core value of mine. Mentoring people and sharing information.
And making people better is a core value of mine. And so once you're in the courses, you're in the courses. Once you're in our alumni education group, you're in it. And I am there to support you and like meet you wherever you are at. So yeah, I could talk a long time about this whole thing, but hopefully to hearing from these alumni will help to.
Um, make it feel a little bit more, well, not more, a little bit less scary and get you very excited about being able to help your patients faster and get great results because that's what it's all about. So I hope you enjoy it. Without further ado, let's jump in.
Stephanie Comella: Hi everyone. My name is Stephanie Comella and I run a program called Zebrafish Neuro, which is primarily working with individuals who have had spinal cord injury or some sort of traumatic or non traumatic paralyzing injury.
Um, most of my work is online. So, which makes the LTAP an interesting experience. So I'll talk a little bit about how I do it in person, then I'll also talk about it, how I do it, um, online. Um, and then also for context, I'm a Pilates teacher. So, I have worked with, um, I've worked with spinal cord injury since 2011.
And then I'm, uh, in an activity based therapy clinic as sort of a clinical exercise specialist. And then I switched to a Pilates based environment, got my Pilates certification, and been working in Pilates, uh, environment studio, now my own practice, since, gosh, 2015. So, that's for context.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, I was going to say, too, some context before you dive into how you use the LTAP, which I totally want you to do both of those scenarios.
Because, yeah, not, not only is it is virtual an interesting scenario, but virtual with neurologic patients is an interesting scenario. Most people would be so afraid to do virtual with neurologic patients in the first place, let alone with the LTAP. So, um, but what I, you know, what I, I wondered too, and this is going to take your brain back a while, because when we started this journey, things were a little different, both in the world, but then also, like, um, why you started, I would say probably why you started learning from me is just you learned from me at an in person conference and was like, I want to do everything that Anna does.
I love, but also if you can think about like back then, maybe, you know, before you really did the mentors drove into the mentorship and before you really leaned into even the locator tests that at that time was part of the mentorship program. What was, like, your struggle that you had, like, how did you know that what I had to teach could help you with whatever you were struggling with?
Not so much just because you wanted to learn from me, right?
Stephanie Comella: Yeah, um, I think What really caught me, Anna was the first module in your mentorship, which at that point you didn't have the podcast. So like, I didn't really know what your philosophy was. Like I kind of knew, but like you really outlined it in your mentorship and like that first module.
Um, and what stood out to me the most was making sure that you're listening to the body in front of you, like listening to what the body is asking for, as opposed to trying to impose.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: All right. And so I think before I sort of worked in sort of your philosophy and methodology, it was like, I was just kind of like throwing things at the wall and seeing what stuck.
I wasn't really listening to like what the body was asking for. Right. And paying attention to like, what are, what are the clues that the body, because the body is giving so many clues.
Anna Hartman: Yeah,
Stephanie Comella: I just didn't know how to I didn't know what to look for I didn't give it the time and space that it needed to like actually
Anna Hartman: Yeah,
Stephanie Comella: do that quote unquote listening whatever that means.
I know an osteopathic is
Anna Hartman: right, right but still like sort of You letting the body in front of you guide the way instead of you feeling like you had to always figure it out for yourself
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I, and I'll say too, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Anna Hartman: I'm gonna say, I, I'm gonna say, I'll say too, like, um, yeah, so just to point it out, if you all didn't hear what Steph's like struggle was, is she felt like she was just
trying all of her tools and techniques on people without really having a system or a program that it or reasoning, like a solid reasoning for why. And so like, sometimes she'd get lucky and get great results. And then other times it was just like, I don't know, things are we're just throwing it off the wall and see what sticks.
So like, that was the problem. She didn't know the problem was she couldn't solve. Listen to the body. She had no fucking idea what that was, right? Like until she heard me say it but and you know and start working through it because and I think that's like the big thing too is like when I talk about the need for people to Be able to listen to the body and like pay attention to the body in front of it sometimes i'm talking a lot from the solution and telling you what the problem is, but like the real problem was You were just throwing a bunch of shit out there and like seeing what worked and that just in your brain and body just didn't like it.
You felt like there was a better way to do things.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah, I just felt like my programming was so hodgepodge. And I think on in one respect, like I came into the SCI and neuro community without the formal, you know, the formal academia of like, this is what the research is saying and these are what the quote unquote protocols are for this.
And so like, I kind of was just throwing things at the wall to see what was sticking. So that was kind of like the nature of my approach anyways. But I also want to just mention that I think in the neural world, it's very easy to blame The injury
Anna Hartman: yeah,
Stephanie Comella: because it's such an enigma that we can almost we I feel like practitioners and clinicians myself included We get away with blaming the injury a lot more than other injuries that have a lot more sound research on them for like protocols because with neuro, it's just so hard to nail down a protocol.
Everyone's so different. There's too many variables to really have like a really good one size fits all protocol. Um, and so again, it's just so easy to dismiss like lack of progress. I think that was another thing that was such a beautiful highlight for you, uh, that you brought out was like, look, we should be having progress.
Like, if we're not having progress, we need to look at ourselves. Like what are, it's not the injury, it's not the person. It's not the injury is unfixable or whatever, untreatable. Right. I think, again, I think with Neuro, we, As clinicians when what we're doing isn't working It's really easy to fall back on that and it's almost an industry standard to not have progress.
Anna Hartman: Yeah Which is just like so mind blowing. It is mind blowing. Yeah
Stephanie Comella: And what I feel like again, maybe like a transformation In terms of the results that I was getting was like I was getting like decent results and you say this all the time And I hate to just sound like I'm taking words from your mouth, but I truly feel like this is like I was getting relatively good results before, but now I can really say like, you are going to get progress within the time, within the time that we're working together.
Like I literally just got off of a week intensive with someone and it was just like the, for day one to day five was just night and day. Like she wasn't able to get into quadruped at all. And then by the end, she's like doing quadruped rocking. Like, so yeah, it's just like fast changes.
Anna Hartman: You're right. That is so different for a neuro patient.
It's like, I think about my friend who had the accident. We, we talk about a lot. Right. And I think about all the times he's gone to his rehab and like, just, it's like fight, like fighting his nervous system and like not making any progress. And I'm always like, Oh, I wish, I wish you would accept that there's a better way to do things, but
Stephanie Comella: yeah.
Yeah,
Anna Hartman: so yeah,
Stephanie Comella: so I mean, I think that's a nice segue and if I can, I can even talk to the LTAP about that. Absolutely. Um, I think that LTAP gave me a really good way to see the hierarchy. in things to address. Um, it really brought to the forefront that everyone that I work with has had CNS trauma. So the majority of them have a CNS tension pattern.
So that's like step two of your LTAP. And, um, Making sure that I clear that before I do much else, or at least get that to the point where it feels a bit more manageable. I will say it's very hard to just clear CNS tension completely, but I'm like,
Anna Hartman: yeah, especially with someone with a neurologic. Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah.
So at some point I kind of like, I move along the LTAP, but it definitely gives me this hierarchy of like, I need to make sure I'm at least touching this and at least addressing it and giving them homework so that they're working on it every single day.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. And I will say, Anna, like you're right now, I don't know if I hope maybe you're seeing on Instagram.
I'm like really down this rabbit hole of people like, like your friend who has that high neurological tone and you're. And then some of the, the treatments or interventions, I call them for myself have been literally game changing for my high tone clients. And now it's like, I've basically kind of curated from what you've taught me and the polyvagal theory and all that.
Basically a lot of the stuff from the earlier modules in your mentorship has really shaped now how I'm approaching this new field. very, very challenging subset population of the people that I work with. And, um, it's just been, it's been cool. I've been playing with that for the, like the last two years.
And I feel like I've landed on something that again, gets me super quick results. Um, considering the fact that people struggle with this is like one of the main problems that people have in this. Yeah,
Anna Hartman: I love that.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Anna Hartman: And that's a lot of, um, so I just, I did something special for this group, for the, when the people who showed up on the second live call, I am giving them the reset your nervous system regen session with like a PDF of like my clinical reasoning for each one of those exercises.
Um, so, and, and that's like a lot of the exercises stuff is talking about. Yep. you know, a good amount of them are in there in addition to the visceral stuff, because I know that you use like the visceral massage as, um, yes, it treats the viscera, but as more of a enteroreception downregulating the nervous system standpoint, which.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So definitely. Yeah. Using that. But I also think. Um, and we're getting a little bit away from the LTAP specifically, but just the interventions that you taught overall and just the, even the visceral inhibitions and things like that. It came to my attention that people who are not walking and are using wheelchairs are not getting the rotational kind of, Natural visceral massage that so things like bowel movements are really hard.
Um, things just like lung expansion and rib expansion. And so I've just found that even without the LTAP, but understanding how much the viscera affects. autonomic systems, but then also like we'll say movement as well. Um, and that definitely needs to be addressed for someone that's not getting that trunk movement in a day to day kind of like your normal ADLs and things like that.
So
Anna Hartman: absolutely. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So, okay. Yeah. Let's go back. I'm like, talking to you right now. I'm like, Oh my God, why haven't I brought you on the podcast? Speaking of like, this is actually be a really great podcast.
Stephanie Comella: Right. We can just recreate it.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. So we need to schedule that. Okay. Mental note.
Stephanie Comella: Whatever.
Anna Hartman: Um, but yeah, so the LTAP. So yeah, how do you, you first talk about how you use it in person, like during your internship.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah, in person is a little bit more straightforward because I do it kind of as you, as you taught. Um, so what's been really cool is, so like I'll clear that, I'll clear the CNS tension pattern and then I go into the thoracic and the abdominal organs.
Um, what's been really interesting is I, often see a lot of, especially with cervical level injuries, um, where they've had trauma to the neck. Like it, it makes sense to me too, that there might be some drama, trauma with like esophagus and trachea and like the structures in the throat. Generally, I would say like, Eight times out of 10, I get taken to esophagus and I try not to have my bias, but I'm like, yeah, that makes sense to me.
Um, esophagus tends to have a lot of, um, a lot of, uh, come back with the positive inhibition. So, um, especially in the cervical. Um, and so where am I going with this? Yes. So I'll do things. So basically I'll do like the visceral inhibition testing. And when we find the, the one that's the inhibited, uh, or the one that's maybe causing restriction, I call that the button because like, I think we did this a few times in the mastermind where like someone could like touch the thing, do their squat and their squat got better just from like their own inhibition.
Right. So literally on the spot, again, quick changes. Um, and so what I would do to like blow my client's mind is I can like put my put my hand there or have them touch it. Or a lot of times it's like in the stomach, like one of my clients had a gastro tube. So I think there was like some stuff going on there.
Like I would just put my hand on her stomach and she would be able to like bridge better or roll over better or whatever. So it was cute. They would joke that it was like their button. We would call it their button for a bit, but really it was like the visceral inhibition and eliciting a better performance.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: That was kind of cool.
Anna Hartman: I love that. Are you using them? So the, you know, everybody this week in this course and this Facebook group just went through the, um, just the March test, right? Ah, okay. So the SI joint mobility locator test. Yeah. Are you, um, are you always going back on that? Because I know you said that you just kind of start with the central nervous system to clear that first.
So, like Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Comella: And then always coming back to it.
Anna Hartman: Okay. Yeah. So you are kind of going back and seeing what their experience is. Okay.
Stephanie Comella: I would say it's very, it's not very often that it's clear and I go lower extremity. Although that did happen actually, um, recently.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. And then it's like, aren't you glad you tested?
Cause you probably would have been so frustrated with that client. Right? Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. Cause in my head, and you always talk about like, trust what you feel. It may be not what you expect. So that was kind of what I try to go without bias again. It's like, Oh, if someone has a injury here or injury in their neck or whatever, like it's not always that.
Yeah. So yeah,
Anna Hartman: yeah. Love that. And do you find, I mean, obviously with, with your, your, uh, client population, not always being super ambulatory, you're, you're sort of like, you're being very creative how you're testing their SI joint mobility sometimes because. You know, I know you've done it probably in sideline before or considered that
Stephanie Comella: Uh, we can sit I think we talked about that at the last time Yeah, because I can't I can't really easily do a march test.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Oh, i'm i'm usually do it with the manual
Anna Hartman: Yeah, the supine test.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. Yeah, just the the yeah,
Anna Hartman: do you ever when you well and this probably like leads you into um Yeah, so Nicole just asked in the comments, how does one do the SI joint mobility allocator test if they can't move their legs? Yeah, the supine version, um, which is one of the, you know, I teach that in the LTAP level one, but I mentioned that in one of the modules, I talked about how you could use any SI joint mobility test.
with a breath hold and it should give you the same information except if it's a prone test. So the only SI joint mobility test that wouldn't work for the locator test is prone. So that's how she does it. She does a passive.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah, I do passive. We did though talk, which admittedly I haven't tried it yet.
But, um, so I have a Pilates trapeze table, which I can use to suspend limbs. So what we did talk about in the last mastermind was having someone sideline. And basically having my assistant pull the leg up while I'm doing the like fingers.
Anna Hartman: Yeah feeling. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, but it's like yeah,
Stephanie Comella: I haven't tried it yet because I feel like the other one's just easy
Anna Hartman: yeah, it is easy and most of your I mean and obviously what you're teaching them too is like They need to be like autonomous and getting in and out of their wheelchair, if they're in a wheelchair or whatever.
So it's like no big deal to be like, okay, well you're sitting, but we're going to lay down.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. All of my sessions are out of wheelchair. Yeah. Awesome. So it's not a big deal to get someone on the table. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Okay. I love that. Um, so. So, um, talk to us about how you use it in the virtual setting then.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. Um, I feel like actually I need to pick Danielle's brain a little bit more about this. Cause I know that she says so much of this full thing. So, um, doing it,
Anna Hartman: Meghan does too. Just, uh, Meghan teed.
Stephanie Comella: Oh, cool.
Okay,
great. Um, with doing the LTAP remotely and then someone cannot move themselves. So it's not like I can have someone stand in front of the camera and do.
March test, right? Like that's not a thing. Yeah. So, um, Anna and I had talked once about how most of my clients are probably going to be in a CNS tension pattern. So I may be able to skip that first test.
Anna Hartman: Well, and even like what we talk about is like when the SI joint is not a good test to use, right? It's, it's not good.
Like the same kind of scenario, if somebody has got, um, arthritis or like ankylosing spondylitis. And like an actual fused SI joint. It no longer is a good test, so we just move on to the rest of the test.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah, yeah. So I just go straight to the CNS. I have them feel their own mastoids, or even do like this like Frankenstein thing, because not everyone can feel that, right?
We've talked about like, this is like kind of okay. But again, I'm not there. So it has to be, it is what it is. Yeah. Um, and then also to like, I'll have them feel their sacrum a little bit. It's actually quite easy to do. It's relatively easy for them to do the side bending test, um, on camera. So that one is more what I bias to, um, not everyone can sit vertically.
So I have to look a little bit more like when they're just laying on the mat. One of my clients, especially, she's got like an overhead view, which is amazing. Yes. Um, and she'll get on the mat and her default will be like that. And I'm like, okay. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: I'm going to say, were you at that mastermind when Janet was like, will you treat me?
And then she laid down on the table and she did that. And I was like, I have a feeling I know what it is. Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Um, And, you know, again, with the remote, it's not a perfect science. It's obviously better if I can be there in person. But what I'll do is I most, I can look at, and same thing with the visceral stuff.
And so like, instead of doing a visceral inhibition test, I kind of have them go through some of the movements that the organs would be. I love that. Yeah. And then I'd be like, Oh, well, if that looks, or, or almost backwards, it was like, okay, I'm going to have you do an X roll. And I'm like, Ooh, you're looking sticky here.
I'm like, what is that?
Anna Hartman: Yes. Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: And then we address that organ. And then if it gets better than I'm like, Oh, then I was on the money. Right. And if not, then we'll look at it again. I'll be like, what other organ could that be? So the LTAP, it's not super straightforward on remote the way I use it. And I, there could be a better way.
I'll talk to those other girls, but I feel like it's given me at least a different lens of view on how to see. Like sticky movement patterns and and like a starting place to go.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yeah, and you know And and I love that you said that too because my whole point with everything because I mean it's the type of thinker I am and you probably are too but it's like I don't ever want to work in a very like, do this, then do this, then do this sort of scenario.
And so even though the LTAP level one course is set up like that in terms of like, I teach you this test, and then I teach you, you know, I teach you all five tests and like, tell you how to go through the sequence. But at the end of the day, all of it is to demonstrate. Like very specific principles of how a whole organism works and how the nervous system and the like some like the body Work together in these different protection patterns and how to how to see that and follow Like oh, this is where a protection pattern is.
I need to do treatment here, right? So it's like yeah, all of these techniques are to teach you principles So then once you understand the principles you can make stuff up Which is a lot of what your work is, but it's like working so well for you. Yeah, and that's it, and then, yeah. I was like, the virtual setting too, I always tell people like, it's never going to be the exact same as in person.
There's, like, cause it's not.
Stephanie Comella: But luckily, I think like literally my whole career has been exploration and experimentation. So I don't feel weird going off the map. You would do that whether there's a logical reason for it, right?
Anna Hartman: You would you would do that whether I gave you permission to or not. That's just how your brain is.
Same with mine. That's like why I created the LTAP, right? Because I'm good at like, assimilating information, finding the principles, seeing the red thread, and then like, Putting it together in a sort of bigger picture. So yeah, I love that.
Stephanie Comella: I would say too, if I could just add another and kind of like a snippet of a conversation that we had was.
And if you remember, and for everyone listening, so I think I came back from a master, the mastermind one year, and I got this new client and she had all of this laundry list of stuff. And I was like, awesome. She's going to be so good to do the LTAP on like fantastic. She hasn't, she's never worked with me before.
So this will just feel like a natural assessment that normally happens. So I came in and I did the assessment. And it just was like a disaster, so to speak, in my world.
Anna Hartman: Fair.
Stephanie Comella: And I think I talked to you about it, and um, I think one of the reasons why it didn't go as well as I wanted it to, was because this girl is literally like a medical mystery to begin with, and so she's often poked and prodded and the assess the word assessment is like, she's like, great.
Another practitioner. That's going to do an assessment on me. Right.
Anna Hartman: And tell me all the things that are wrong with me. Yeah,
Stephanie Comella: yeah, yeah. Well, I mean,
Anna Hartman: all the things that are wrong with me. Yeah.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. That was the first and only time I did the LTAP on her. I have never done it on her again. But, because I have sort of this now eye to see how everything sort of plays into her movement, we start getting into movement and I'm kind of like, Hmm, if I did the LTAP, I wonder if that would have been the result of it.
And so then we address, you know, so she's, she's not feeling like she's getting assessed and I'm not doing the full poke and prod, but I'm still kind of doing the LTAP almost from like a movement lens of view.
I feel like it's, it's, she feels more comfortable, obviously, so I'm getting better results just from that.
Anna Hartman: Right, which is like the whole point, the whole, right, you're like, you're paying attention to the person in front of you, you're listening to their body, and her body was like, I don't want to feel like there's something wrong with me anymore, I just want to move my body. And so you're like, okay, well, let's do that.
But I want to know where your body is directing me. So I'm going to pay attention to all the things and think about that in a visceral and neural lens of view, because. It's like, whole organism and like, so you honored like that safety piece, which is the highest hierarchy. Right. Feeling safe. And so it's like, yeah, this is the important piece though.
I love that. I do remember you, I do remember me. I do remember that happening and I'm like. Sounds like she does, like it reminded me of my hockey player one day who I was like, I, I was really excited about working with them. And I told them this was before I knew all this stuff, but I told them I did this evaluation on them.
And I was like, Oh, you can't you don't breathe, right? You don't walk, right? You don't do this, right? You don't do this, right? And then he never came to work with me again. And, uh, you know, a few weeks later, I I told the coach, I was like, yeah, I mean, he didn't, I don't know why he never wanted to do treatment with me.
And he's like, honestly, he told me it's because you told him all the things that were wrong with him. And he didn't like that because he felt like he was getting around just fine. And he's right. He was like a 20 year NHL veteran that literally had never really had major injuries. And so I'm like, lesson learned.
Lesson learned.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: So.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: I love that.
Stephanie Comella: Yeah. So I tend to, honestly, I tend to do the LTAP actually after I've worked with someone for a little bit. And like, again, I can like kind of piece things together and I'm like, I feel like it's time to get really specific now and then I will go through it.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
I love that. . Cool. Well, I really appreciate you being here. Is there any like parting thoughts you have to anybody sort of like on the fence of like, you know, joining the online men, the online on top, or the in person besides just do it, but like, uh,
Stephanie Comella: I don't know how to say this about like a shaky face, but Anna, I feel like your curriculum has like truly shaped what I do in my program.
It's such a huge. It's been such a huge inspiration and contribution to the work, what I'm doing. And, um, if, yeah, I don't, I don't know how to say it more than that. Like it's just been such a huge influence. And I just feel like as someone trying to pioneer something in this population or with anyone trying to pioneer anything and stand out right in your, in your field, like this is, this is it, this is the thing that'll make you stand out.
Anna Hartman: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. You are you're doing amazing work and your community is like So freaking lucky to have you so
Stephanie Comella: thank you.
Anna Hartman: I am and yes to answer your question earlier I see all the things you're doing leaning into the high tone thing and I freaking love it
Stephanie Comella: I hope I'm glad I have your blessing.
I give you so much shout out just so you know, I tell everyone to just do your mouth. I was like, I will give you the tip of the iceberg if you want to go to the real deal.
Anna Hartman: I'm like, in all, every time we talk, I'm like, you don't have to, you can, you can make it your own. By all means. This has never been only my work either.
So, but I appreciate it.
Thank you for joining me today, Beth. I really appreciate it. Um, I know you're busy and, well, maybe you're not.
I don't know. I assume you're busy. I assume everybody's busy.
So I'll give you the floor also, if you could introduce yourself and like what your profession is, kind of what setting you work in, that would be great too.
Beth Drayer: Hi, I'm Beth. Uh, I am a certified athletic trainer. Uh, I am in private practice now. Um, For about five years. Um, and what led me to you? Well, one I've known you for quite some time now, but, uh,
Anna Hartman: Beth and I went to college together,
Beth Drayer: so I didn't want to say how long, um, it was just a couple of years ago, right?
Sure.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. A couple of decades ago, but yes.
Beth Drayer: Um, yeah, I was jealous of you're at the game the other day. Anyway, but, uh, you actually. I felt very called out by you. Um, cause you had, uh, put something out saying, do you feel like you treat holistically? And at the time I thought I was, and, uh, it's like, what's she talking about?
And, uh, so then I, We started chatting and I was like, Oh, I'm not even close. So, um,
Anna Hartman: yeah. Cause I said, um, you think if you think you're treating the whole body, like head to toe, you're probably not, but you need to think about is like treating the whole organism. Yeah. You're treating the whole body. It's just biomechanics.
And I, I want you to consider the viscera and the nervous system, the whole organism. Yeah. And you're like, wait a second, you're right.
Beth Drayer: Yeah. So I totally felt called out and I was like, Oh, well, I guess I should learn how to do this then. Um, and then I think also, right, like you did, you did a talk up at UCLA that I went to, and you did like the whole listening and all that kind of stuff.
And. I mean, in real time, saw the differences of how you worked compared to how everybody else worked. And it was just
Anna Hartman: forgot. I did that at that course.
Beth Drayer: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Craig had me, um, demo on a patient, like they brought a patient and I forgot about that. Yeah. Cause that, that talk at UCLA was, uh, me and Craig talking about rest resiliency in the nervous systems.
I was sharing Phillip Beach's rest postures, and like, kind of like. The beginning of my region sessions, really. Yeah. Um, yeah. And then Craig's like, Oh, here, treat this patient.
Beth Drayer: I have this guy. Can you take a look at him? You're like, yeah, sure. So yeah, like seeing it in real time and just like, Oh, I'm not even close.
I want to be able to do things like that and make changes that quickly. Um, and so I, I dove, dove in headfirst with you and I, and it's changed my life for sure. I love to hear that.
Anna Hartman: So, um, you dove in, I mean, you started with the mentorship because as I, as some of the alumni yesterday, I was explaining, um, That was before I had the LTAP pulled out and I would firehose information of everything I know, knew in the mentorship, by the way, which is why it's under construction.
So it's not like a firehose. Um, but I like would be like, Hey, if there's anything you get out of this, just get solid on the locator tests. And so, um, then I pulled it out separate and.
Beth Drayer: It's a game changer for sure. Um, which, I mean, I mean, I'll, I'll be honest, like not as much as I should, but I still go back to like the mentorship stuff and I'm like, I know we went about over this summer, and I'm like looking for it and you know, going back to that every so often as well.
Um, but the, the locator test stuff is for sure the, uh,
Anna Hartman: the dial, the,
Beth Drayer: yeah, the, that what, what changes things and then everything else sort of falls into place. Like you said, like, like you always say like, it's not really the treatment, it's where you start and what you're doing really. Makes a difference.
So, um, so the, you know, doing, doing both in person and on the, in the online, like online's great to kind of get a general understanding and try to start playing around with things. But once you're in person and you get to see it and feel it with other people, like all the light bulbs go off and all the connections are made and it just really makes a huge difference to be able to do it in person as well.
So. Um, and like I said, I think we talked about it earlier, like, just even just the, the, the SI joint mobility, just having an idea whether you need to start above or below basically, right? Like, Just having that knowledge makes a huge difference in the results that I've gotten. I mean, I only did that for probably six months.
And before I even started playing around with the other tests to see what I could come up with, and that just made a huge difference.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
So, um, I love that. And I mean, I think probably too, if you were to describe like yourself, like you were a very like kinesthetic learner, um, you know, so a little bit of that, like, I mean, I knew bringing Beth on that she would be like the in person course was the difference maker, which I get.
I mean, that's why I created the in person course too, because I was noticing on the online course, like people were like, I could tell like they just needed to feel it. And so, of course, like it's, you know, but the value of all the in person courses now that I host for you all, you know, for the mentorship mastermind, but then just in even LTAP level one is like, the beauty of having a hybrid learning environment is we get to be practical all day long.
And like,
Beth Drayer: you've been coming to some of the courses with you now, like TAing and stuff like that. Knowing that like some of the people, you can tell the people that did the online and have like the background. Right. And then, and then they come in and then they're like, Oh, yeah. See the progression through that whole weekend of how it connects for people and stuff like that.
It's, it's. It's pretty powerful and you said it like I think it was like our first mastermind when we when we did it or the first in person thing you you're like I set this up for a reason like you like the steps you just see him like fall in place now and you're like oh I get it.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, yeah, it's by design how I like have both the online course and in person course and also like, you know, because oftentimes I get questioned like, well, why would I do both?
If it's the same for information? Why would I do both? I'm like, because
Beth Drayer: Well, once once is never enough to begin with, right?
Anna Hartman: Exactly. Once is never as Shante Cofield says, uh, but then also because it's like, because if I were to spend the time in an in person course, giving you all the information that you needed to be super proficient in it, it would be probably like a, um, eight day course
Beth Drayer: would be, yeah, it would be able to get through everything in a legitimate amount of time.
Anna Hartman: Sure. Exactly. So it's like this way, It's more get through able. Um, and it's like, of course there's always more to learn, but it allows you to get as much of that information that you need in order to get the results. Then, once you start getting the results and you've seen how amazing it is, then you want the details of why.
If I confuse you, Well, not even if I confuse you when I give people all the why It's super fucking confusing because the why especially in this new paradigm is such a mind fuck that it's like Paralyzes your thought process a little bit and makes it hard to feel and then it just like makes everything more challenging so like asking people to have that like beginner mindset and like not worry about the why just like go through the process and like see it work and like Put a little trust in your hands and the body is like, where is that?
Where's that? Yes.
Beth Drayer: Yeah. Like, I mean, like you said, like I'm, I'm, I'm a thinker too much sometimes as well. So when, when I want to know why, right. Like, and I'm trying to think it through and you're like, just feel it. Don't worry about all the other stuff right now. It definitely makes a difference.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Um, well, I mean, it's funny too, like, cause it's also like, do we really care why it worked?
Like, they don't have shoulder pain anymore. Like, do you, like, does it matter?
Beth Drayer: No, and I find myself saying that more to people lately. They're like, wait, I don't understand. I'm like, does it matter? Yeah. Like. Do you have pain right now? No? Great. Like, let's move on. Like,
Anna Hartman: and I think that's a, you know, I, I talked a lot about in all my teaching and in this paradigm is like letting go of your ego when it comes to like being a practitioner.
And that is like, A big sign of it. Like when you're wanting to know why all the time, um, that is you feeding your ego. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, and I like there's a difference between wanting to know why because you're curious and wanting to know why because you want to be the expert in it. Yeah, and, but it's a little bit too of like, when you really boil down to it and ask that question of like, well, if you could guarantee your patient that comes in, the next patient you come, that comes in, if you could give them no pain and improved function of why they come in to see you, but you would never know why it happened, like, do you want that?
Beth Drayer: Yeah, because the whole point is to get them out of pain, right?
Anna Hartman: Exactly, exactly. And so it's like, but then there's sometimes people are like, well, I kind of want to know like, well, like, why, but why, like.
Beth Drayer: And that's the thing. They're like, you know, they're like, is it going to be a placebo? I'm like, does it matter?
Like, it doesn't matter if it's a placebo. It's not a placebo. If you can, if you want to call it a placebo, sure. Like, whatever. The whole point is you feel better now than when you walked in and that's why you came in. So it really shouldn't matter. But
I mean, same thing is like, I feel like it's almost like the same thing as like rock tape sometimes, right?
Like for some people it works, some people it doesn't. They're like, is it just because you threw something on me? I'm like, maybe. Does it matter? Like if you feel better, you feel better. It doesn't matter.
Anna Hartman: Um, so one of the questions, um, I wonder, so we talked about You felt like, you know, part of the reason you took the courses is because you felt like you realized from me kind of calling you out, like that you weren't really treating as holistically as you thought.
So you wanted more of a tool. Obviously you got that. Um, what did you see from a change in your, um, results? Um, either what you saw with your patients or even, um, especially patients who had already been seeing you and now seeing you in this different mode, like, what is their response has been?
Beth Drayer: Um, yeah, because like, I still have athletes that come see me that I worked with when I was in the university.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Beth Drayer: Um, so they give me a hard time still. They're like, oh, just like some stim. Um, because that was our solution back then because you had like 12 people on tables looking at you and there's you and you have to manage all of them. Right. So, like, since then was like time management at that point, um, but now, like, being able to get results with them within a session or two that we would be working on for, um.
Weeks before, you know, just, you know, is a big difference. Um, cause you know, they're used to, like, how many times a day do I need to do this? Yeah. Like once, how many times do I need to come see you? Like see me today. Like if we need to come back next week, like we'll talk about that. But like, they're like, I don't have to come back tomorrow.
I'm like, no. like that's not how it works anymore. And they're like kind of, yeah. They're like, what, I don't know that doesn't compute for them too. because like, we're used to like Three times a day, whatever, you know, need to, you know, ice your knee or whatever. So, um, things like that have been a huge change.
And, um, which I think actually for like the general population, nobody wants to go to PT three times a week and do the same things over and over again and not get any results, you know, come in. Once a week once every other week for a few weeks and get you back doing the things you want to do way different.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. I love that. Um, speaking of the university setting. Um, I know you're not there yet anymore like you you are you are in private practice like you see things more, you know, you're like you work clinically, but also when you work. You work volleyball tournaments and things like that. How do you, how do you see the LTAP like being beneficial in those settings?
Like, think back to those days in the athletic training room when you had so many people, um, needing you, needing something or like even in a tournament tent, like when you've got a bunch of people, like, is it helpful in those scenarios you think to, or like, have you even played around with that?
Beth Drayer: I, Like, looking back at, like, in the university setting, like, how much easier would it be to just do, like, an SI joint test and be like, okay, you need to work on, in, you know, in neural exercise.
So, go do, like, eye exercises or whatever for five minutes. I'm gonna go now test this person and give them, like, things to start working on. The management of it would have been way different, way easier. And they would have gotten results way faster. Like so many people that I look back on, I'm like, Oh, I only knew this, this person, like, there's so many people that I would, I wish I could have like gone back to and, and done things differently with them.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I love that you, you see that. Cause I think back to, I'm like, man, what, not that I want to work in traditional setting again. I'm like, but man. It'd be cool just to work in a traditional setting for a couple of days, just to like, just triage it, like, just see how, like, good it would work, because I, I do think that is like the huge benefit of it, is like, I, I think that was, you know, from a learning curve standpoint, in the LTAP level one, like, people are like, how, like, this is taking me too long, and I'm like, it shouldn't take, if you're, if it takes you too long, you're overthinking it, because really, it's quick, like,
Beth Drayer: For sure.
Yeah.
Anna Hartman: So quick. So it works great as triage and like management and really helps you filter out those people who actually do truly need an additional clinical exam or a more manual therapy or like something a differential diagnosis sort of thing as opposed to people who are just like something's not hurting or operating right because of the protection pattern.
Beth Drayer: Yeah. And I feel like as far as like currently like. I haven't done it much in the tent yet, but like, I can, there's been a couple people here and there, but like, it's, usually that's what it is, right? They're not usually, like, they're usually in a protection pattern of some sort. You know, they're, they're playing all day, and it's, it's not like, not usual that they're like, I, you know, fell and hurt my knee or I twisted my ankle or, you know, I dislocated my shoulder.
It's those aren't usually the things are like, I played three matches yesterday. I have two more today. I'm tight. Like, what do we need to do to loosen all this stuff up and get ready to play, you know, your matches and stuff like that. It's a lot easier to just go and manage that. Yeah. So
Anna Hartman: it's interesting. So like, um, It's definitely because I think of like even now how I've utilized it in a more triage setting like that and it's probably like while I'm at the track, um, you know, guys are training and something doesn't feel right before the competition and they're like, I have a, you know, like sometimes like we've got 45 minutes to warm up and their warm up takes 40 minutes.
So it's like I have five minutes. So like, you know, Try to give them something that's going to make a difference.
Beth Drayer: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Uh, and so it's like, yeah, just kind of like what you said, just doing the SI joint test like allows me to be like, okay, above or below, and then like use my best clinical judgment for a couple of little quick, usually nerve drills and see what changes things.
And it's been so helpful.
Yeah. Helpful.
Beth Drayer: I mean, and that, like you said, I mean, just, I don't want to say it's always nervous system, but like a lot, I feel like a lot of that time is, like, it's just a nervous system thing where they just, like, need to, like, relax, right?
Anna Hartman: Yeah, I mean, but, I mean, for me, sometimes I'm like, oh, shoot, it's, you're complaining of pain on your right and, like, I'm glad we did this test because it's telling me it's something, we got to do something on your left leg.
Oh, funny, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So.
Beth Drayer: That's crazy. Yeah, but it's, but like you said, they're actually where to go. So you're just like,
Anna Hartman: I always tell the athletes to in that scenario, like, um, I'm either going to waste time trying different interventions, or I can waste minimal time doing this quick assessment
Beth Drayer: and then get to the thing.
Anna Hartman: Yeah, which then it's actually it saves us time. Um, so it's like the only time I don't do it is like, you know, like one of my players called me at like half time of their football game. And he was like, Anna, quick. I'm feeling this. What should I do? I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm not even like I'm in you're in the locker room with your team.
I'm in the stands. And I'm like, And I was like, did you try these things? But it's like, yeah, obviously I'm not gonna be like, well, send me a video of your March test with and without a breath hold. I'm like, no. Oh my gosh, your ankle hurts real quick? Let's try these three things. But, um, yeah, but for the most part, like if it's in a, like a competition setting or like pre practice setting like that, like it's still pretty useful at least to do just the first test, if not more than one.
Yeah. Cool. Um, so yeah. So you feel like you're treating the whole organism now instead of the whole body. Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. I love that. Yeah. And now, like, even you see, like, many different populations, you're not just working with athletes, right? You're working with
Yeah. I'm, I'm like Eight year olds
and
Beth Drayer: Yeah.
Yeah. Like, right now, the oldest person I have is 80. Uh, the youngest is probably, like, 26, I think? Yeah. Well, I just finished with like a 15 year old a couple weeks ago. Um, but yeah, so across the board, um, and, but most of the people I see are just like active aging. So sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day, just doing nothing.
And then they're like, Oh, my back hurts.
Anna Hartman: Right. Now my front hurts.
Beth Drayer: Yeah. I'm like, go figure. Now my knee hurts.
Anna Hartman: Um, yeah. So I love that. Cause I, that's another question I get from people a lot is, you know, especially when I'm teaching, they're like, oh, Anna works with professional athletes, but does this work for geriatric population?
Does this work for the desk worker? Like, I'm like, I, it's whole organism. It should work for everybody.
Beth Drayer: Yeah. It's, and it's, um, it's been cool because I've had some people, Very quickly feel changes like from minimal stuff that we've done like Because usually like on their first on their first Session, we don't get to a lot of like treatment side of things.
It's Let me give you something that's gonna knock it down a little bit.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Beth Drayer: And the, the, I had a lady come in a couple weeks ago and she's like, I felt lighter and energized for like the next five days. And I was like, love that. Sweet. Like, that's the coolest thing you could ever say to me, like, I'm like, okay.
So um, so yeah, like it, and she's, she's the 80 year old. Um, it, it, it really doesn't matter what the population is. So, yeah, I love that. It's been awesome. And, and, and it's cool, like, like, I've always been fascinated by the body and that's why I got into this, right? Like I get to play with the body, but like, it gives you more than just the muscles and bones.
Like you're literally now like playing with everything. Like you get to, I get to play with people's brains, you know, and it, It's kind of cool. And it's not in the creepy way.
Anna Hartman: Haha, yeah. I love that. Um, well, is there anything else you feel like you want to say to people who are like, considering diving into the LTAP Level 1?
Beth Drayer: I mean, if, if you want to get people, if, if, if you're in this to help people and get them better, this is literally the future of it. And this is the only way to do it. Great. for your play. Um, once you see it, you can't unsee it. So like you can't, like, it's out there. It's like have someone come in and just be like, okay, well, let's just do some knee exercise.
Like I just, it's, it's like painful. And it's a different one because they're not going to get the results that you can get. Um, so I feel like,
Anna Hartman: yeah. And then to be fair to like, you still use those other.
Beth Drayer: Oh, for sure. It's not like we're not doing the knee rehab, but like, What's
Anna Hartman: not fighting it so much
Beth Drayer: for it to make you feel better and stick longer than having to do it three times a week every, you know, every three hours or whatever.
So, um, sorry, there's a garbage truck outside. If you hear that, sorry. Again,
Anna Hartman: I think that's like sometimes to people like, well, this isn't all like, if somebody tore their ACL, like, Are you going to have them do? I'm like, no, like, no, this doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Beth Drayer: No,
Anna Hartman: like that makes all that stuff easier.
And like, you're not fighting with the body anymore. So I don't have to give them 50 million cues in order to like squat correctly.
Beth Drayer: Yeah. No. Like I have a, I have a guy, uh, he had a partial knee replacement last year and he just tore his meniscus like six weeks ago or just had meniscus surgery like six weeks ago.
So we're like, he'll come in, I'll do the test. Yeah. Um, see if there's anything that we need to address. And then we do like, yeah, we're, you know, hamstrings, you know, squats, lunges we're doing, you know, all that kind of stuff. So um, it's still doing the things, it's just making sure that a, there's nothing inhibiting him and giving him pain that I can control and then move forward so we can continue getting through pain free range of motions and exercises.
Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Hartman: I love that. Alright, well thank you for joining me.
I was going to say, people, you are, so Beth is one of my teaching assistants as well, um, she'll also be one of the first certified LTAP practitioners. She's almost finished with that requirement. And, um, If you have questions, I'm sure to answer them like her Instagram is, uh, I think just Beth Drayer movement, right?
Beth Drayer: Yep.