Using the LTAP™ to Find Structure and Ease in Massage Therapy- an LTAP™ Level 1 Alumni Interview
In this bonus episode, I chat with my longtime community member and friend Bethany Clark, a massage therapist based in Boise, Idaho. Bethany has taken both the online and in-person LTAP™ Level 1 courses, and she joins me to talk about how she’s integrated the LTAP™ into her massage therapy practice.
Bethany shares how the LTAP™ gave her something she was searching for: a structured, body-led starting point that allows her to support her clients’ nervous systems without guessing, projecting, or over-pathologizing.
We get into:
Why test/retest changed everything for her practice
How LTAP™ offers a “clinical anchor” in a world of vague nervous system talk
Why she loves using it to avoid resistance in sessions (and how it saves her time + energy)
What it’s like to blend intuition with structure as a massage therapist
And how she’s built a truly trauma-informed practice—without needing to know every detail of a client’s story
Whether you’re in the massage world or just interested in seeing how LTAP™ works beyond traditional rehab, Bethany’s insight is a powerful reminder that you don’t have to be a PT or chiro to use this work meaningfully (and confidently).
Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Sign Up HERE for the 2025 Online LTAP™ Level 1 Course
Learn the LTAP™ In-Person in one of my upcoming courses
Considering the viscera as a source of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction is a great way to ensure a more true whole body approach to care, however it can be a bit overwhelming on where to start, which is exactly why I created the Visceral Referral Cheat Sheet. This FREE download will help you to learn the most common visceral referral patterns affecting the musculoskeletal system. Download it at www.unrealresultspod.com
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Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Unreal Results Podcast. Have another little bonus episode for you, uh, speaking with another LTA level one alumni. This time I'm talking to my friend and colleague, uh, Bethany Clark. Bethany is a massage therapist up in Boise, Idaho, and has been, um, in the community for quite a long time.
Uh, has taken both the online course and the in-person course. So she joins us today talking about how she integrates this into her. Massage therapy practice specifically. Also working a lot with, um, people that have post-traumatic stress and just working in a way that really supports, uh, the autonomic nervous system.
So looking forward to sharing this conversation. Hope you enjoy it.
Anna Hartman: Hello my friend. Hello. Um, welcome. Welcome to the Facebook Live, the Missing Link Group, and then also to the Unreal Results Podcast, 'cause I'll put this on the podcast as well. Um, I'm really happy that you were able to do this and, um, thank you for being here.
And, um, again, I mean, I told you on the backside's kind of like what we're talking about, but in general, you know, it is more of, this is more of like a informal conversation just to sort of share about your journey with the ltap, how, you know, what led you to it in the first place, whatever unwanted experiences or problems that you felt like you have.
And, um, how has it changed your practice and, you know, both from a results for your patients, but then also, like what we were just talking about with Katrina was like personal professional, like whether it's like. You know, going from burnout to feeling better or like raising your prices or like seeing less patients or like, whatever it may be, right?
All those things that like are the effects of getting better results for our patients. So, um, yeah. Anyways, everyone, this is Bethany. She's the massage therapist in Idaho. Bo Yeah, Boise, Idaho. And, uh, she's been in my community for quite a long time and has done both the online and in person L tops. So, um, welcome.
I'll give the floor to you. You can share what kind of like clients you work with and stuff too, but, okay.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah. Um, I was, as you were like saying those questions, I was like, I hope she remembers those questions because. I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna touch on all of it, but I want to.
Anna Hartman: Um, and I'm glad I'll, I'll ask you the questions.
If you don't answer, I will reframe it. Okay.
Bethaney Clark: Um, I actually love that you sent that email and you're like, Hey, short notice, sorry, can you do this thing? And I was like, I actually love that. 'cause I literally had maybe 10 minutes to like, do that. Yeah. And it forced me to be really succinct. You knew what you were doing.
Kay. Yeah. Um, it forced me to be really succinct and to just like get something out there. Yeah. And that's like what happens with clients too, is you don't always have the luxury of like, yeah. They ask you questions and you're like, uh, this is what I'm doing. So I really actually liked that. Um, yeah. I mean,
Anna Hartman: sometimes when we have less time, we're just.
Just do it. Yeah, just do it. So, yeah. Um, it was not on purpose. That was because I was, I have had a million things and it was, I was like, oh shit, I need to ask people for video testimonials and things, but yes. Okay. I'm glad it was
Bethaney Clark: helpful that way. It worked out perfect. You can just be like, yeah, it's totally, I did that on
Anna Hartman: purpose.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah. That's how it was supposed to work. Um, man, Anna, I first heard you on Shante's podcast a million years ago. Million it what, A million years ago. It like 2018.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm. Yep. That is exactly was, um,
Bethaney Clark: and I honestly did not understand most of what you were saying. I was like, I don't even know what an athletic trainer is.
And you were talking about your transition from EXOS to something else. I was like, I don't even know what EXOS is. Like I have no, this world, it's like such a big important place and I like just didn't know. I mean, is it. I don't know if it is, but Yeah. Okay. Well, when you were there, maybe it was Yeah, maybe when I
Anna Hartman: was there it was a big deal.
Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: I'm just kidding. Um, I had just graduated from massage school. I was a dental assistant for a long time, and this does matter mm-hmm. In the scheme of what I'm gonna say. But, um, I was a dental assistant from the time I was 16 until I was 36. And then I decided to do a career change, um, to massage therapy.
And I, I read Body Keeps the Score as one does in their mid thirties, and I was like, there was a chapter in there that talked about working with post-traumatic stress in massage therapy. And I was like, I don't know. It, like, literally something clicked in my brain and I, I was in like a Whole Foods parking lot and I called, um, a massage school and I was like, do you guys.
Like, how do I apply, how do I get a, like how does this work? Yeah. I was like, this is just something I have to do. So I, I did like a tour and then I told my husband, I was like, I think I should do this. They're enrolling next month. He's like, what are you talking about? Like, I was, I don't know, 15 years from retirement, had worked in a great office.
Yeah. Um, but yeah, it, it was very important to me to like work with people in that way, especially in the dental field. We, you can see that people are dealing with stuff, but it's not within your scope to address it at all.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: The last office I was in, we did, um, migraine care and, um, people will tell you stories and we fortunately could work with pain in that way.
Um. But I don't know. Something about like learning. I was at the front, like billing insurance, but like I learned the training of how to work with migraines and some of it was manual therapy of like the jaw and the neck.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: And just being in that position with people, I was like, okay, I should not be behind a computer.
I should be like with people.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: So I went to school for massage therapy to work specifically with post-traumatic stress. And then I went to school and talked to my teachers about it and like did research, whatever. And there's no, um, there's like no formal training to do that. I read it in the book. So I was like, this is a thing that people do, but like, it's not a thing people do or massage therapists just figure it out or they're like naturally intuitive.
Yeah. So, um, I was a very disillusioned, but I also needed to get experience just doing massage. So, um, I started listening to Shante's podcast 'cause I knew eventually I wanted to do something online. Mm-hmm. So then I came across your stuff and I was like, I do not understand any of the words that she is saying.
I don't know what this means, but there was something to it that like, um,
Anna Hartman: there was, my athletes laugh at me because they're like, you always try to make it like normal people talk, but you still, I still dunno what you're saying. And I was like,
Bethaney Clark: and I mean, granted I was just outta school, so I had very little vocabulary for it.
But yeah. So I think I just started following you and, um, everybody who had worked with you was like, you have to work with Anna. Like, that's just like the, when people are in your ecosystem, it's like you just have to be in there.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: So I think you offered the, it was like something similar, like missing link something where you learn like the first Oh yeah, the results Cheat code.
Results cheat code, yeah. Mm-hmm. So I got in on that and I was, one thing that was so weird for me is like coming from the dental field, everything is a test and retest. You take an x-ray, you want Oh right. Pain mobility of the tooth, like. Whatever. There's always a baseline and then there's a return. Like, did this improve?
Did our surgery work? Um, it was mind blowing to me that massage therapy, you're like, Hey, how do you feel? Okay, take your clothes off. Do okay. And then you go and you're like, do you feel better? Okay, bye. I was like, this cannot be how a medical care is. This cannot be like how an entire industry functions.
And it is. Yeah. So I felt like if I'm gonna work with people, um, I started looking for like orthopedic tests or some type of testing
Anna Hartman: because I
Bethaney Clark: wanted some type of baseline. I didn't know what baseline I should be. Like, is it mobility? Like, I don't know. Um, I started looking around and I found like very specific, like.
Physical therapist type of thing where they're like five degrees of flexion and Oh, right, right. Uh, I can't, I'm, that's not within my scope to like, measure and not helpful. Okay. Thank you. And then once I learned from you, I was like, okay, I saved money because it's, yeah. I'm
Anna Hartman: like, uh, does that really tell you anything?
Not
Bethaney Clark: really. Yeah. Um, so I, um, especially wanting to work with post-traumatic stress, I'd already started like seeing clients that were kind of along those lines.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: And um, a lot of the language around it is very vague and it's like actually not technically accurate. So there'd be like, if you're clients are in fight or flight, I'm like, those are two different things.
Fight flight is not the same thing. Yeah. Where people would be like, oh, they're in this state. And I'm like, I'm not in a position to, I didn't learn how to, um, like diagnose that or like, because they seem stressed out to me. That's not like an actual thing. So all of it was frustrating. Um, so when I, when I was learning from the results cheat code and it was like, okay, pain, uh, people are coming to see me with pain in the body and if they have something going on with the nervous system, it's gonna affect how well my treatment will affect them.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: Um, and so when you were talking about the viscera versus the nervous system, I was like, oh my gosh. There is a way to like physically assess if the nervous system is truly holding something back physically. 'cause some people will come in and they do seem agitated, but they're, they don't test for a nervous system.
Right. Limitation. So that was like, it literally like. I felt like I was looking for a long time for like a foundation to my work that wasn't just like Swedish massage. Yeah. And I feel like that those first like few tests of the Ltap were like, that is the foundation that I can stand firmly on top of and say, I'm not trying to guess, I'm not deciding if you are in some type of nervous system state that I'm not in a position to judge.
Anna Hartman: Right.
Bethaney Clark: I'm still working with the body. I'm working with How your nervous system's managing the rest of like your paying attention. I'm doing it totally within my scope of practice and it's in a way that I can communicate clearly to my people. So they're not like, it's not this mysterious like, oh, Bethany's doing.
Like, no, you can like feel it. Like can you?
Anna Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. You can feel it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so good. 'cause like you, you know, a, a lot of this time that comes up when I'm teaching is, and this I think goes back to just like a greater overarching realization. I don't even know why. Like, to me, I get it, but people need to go through this realization that even though we talk about the nervous system a lot of times now, and it's getting so trendy now, but people still don't really understand the nervous system.
And also it is confusing because there's a difference between like the neurophysiology of things like the autonomic nervous system, right? And then the actual nerves in the brain and the spinal cord. And though yes, they all, everything sort of works together. They are not one in the same. And so we can have central nervous system tension, but not be out of balance.
Autonomic nervous system physiology, right? Or vice versa. We can have both. Or opposite, right? We can not be very out of balance. Low vagal tone, autonomic nervous system. But not have any central nervous system tension. Right. And so, but then also understanding when there's a protective pattern around the visceral viscera that affects the autonomic nervous system.
Yes. Right? Yes. And it also affects the central nervous system. Yes. And, and like spoil alert, it affects the peripheral nervous system. Right. So even like having a way to organize all of that, but then speak to it, I think is so interesting. Kind of like, you know, with a lot of like the post-traumatic stress type stuff that you see, it's like, I think sometimes people get labeled as post-traumatic stress when it is not necessarily that it's just a, you know, imbalance of their autonomic nervous system.
Which doesn't, I can't, you know, we could just mic
Bethaney Clark: drop it there. Like, just, that's the end of it. Yeah. Yeah. When it's
Anna Hartman: not, yes, exactly. But, um, because we're still sort of like trying to understand that, um, autonomic nervous system and, and even the idea of like, you know, there's this kind of overarching thought that the sympathetic nervous system is bad, and I'm like, no, this sympathetic nervous system is great.
It keeps us alive. And then also like we want it to function so we can like. You know, do things Yes. Get up outta bed. Yeah. Yeah. Like our, our visceral organs, like run from that input as well as the parasympathetic input. Like, it, they either really are teammates. Yes. They're such good teammates. And, and so that's just like fascinating to me.
And I, it boils down to, because it's such a complex organism, we're just trying to figure, like, reduce it into parts to make sense of it. Like Right. We want it to be like a math equation. If like A plus B equals C, then great. You know? Yeah. And it's just not like that.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah. And it's, it's like adding in that a lot of this like bottom up, top down processing happens in or near the limbic system is like, now we have a whole other component of what.
The person on the table in front of you thinks that all of this means
Katrina Kneeskern: yes.
Bethaney Clark: So like, yes, there is like this range of motion limitation. I'm testing the nervous system's telling me that there's something going on here, but what they think that means about them right, is like, now that we have a third thing in the room that needs to be addressed.
'cause the meaning making is, you know, not separate from like the anatomy model that we look at. There's now a person who perceives that this is occurring. Yes,
Anna Hartman: yes.
Bethaney Clark: So, yeah. And
Anna Hartman: so interesting you bring that up because it's like, not only is it like how they're perce perceiving what's happening in their body, but are they perceiving it or is it a story that they're believing that they were given from another healthcare provider?
And that's what it's like if, if all I can teach people is about the wisdom of their body is to stop telling fucking people stories about their body is like, hmm, that would fix so much. That would fix so much. And like, how many times did people come and are like, well my doctor said never to bend down, like never to flex my back because my discs are gonna explode.
And I'm like, first of all, they probably didn't say it that way, but also that's what you heard. That's what you heard. And so that's what you now believe. So it's like, yes, this concept of this belief system, like how our beliefs shape our thoughts and affect our actual nervous system, our sense of nervous system.
Yeah. And also our autonomic nervous system. It's like so complex. It's so many things, so many things.
Bethaney Clark: Um, just to speak to that for a second, I listened. Missy has a new podcast out today. Yeah. And um. One of the person on her podcast, a practitioner, said that her client had broken her arm in three spots, and one of the spots it broke was near the head, the head of the humerus.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: And the doctor was saying, if we don't get, there's a chance that you might not get good blood supply to the head of the humerus and it could result in like blah, blah, blah, whatever. So the lady comes in to see this practitioner and she's like, I am at risk for a stroke. And she's like, what do you mean?
So she asked her, can you explain this to me? And she's like, yeah. He said that I might not get blood supply to my head because she didn't know that the head of the humerus is different part of her anatomy. So she's literally walking around like stroke to have
Anna Hartman: an aneurysm. Oh my gosh. So, yeah. True. Yeah.
Yeah. Sometimes what people say, and this is like, I try not to get like pissed at the doctor I know. Yeah. From a game of telephone of what the patient said that the doctor said, because chances are, the doctor might have not even said that in the first place. Yeah. But that's what they heard. Yeah. And so it's like, okay, if that's what they heard, then we Right.
Deal with that's what we're working with. But, and my biggest thing is like if I can be one less person to tell them a story about their body, then that's a good thing. And then it's my job to unravel all those other deeply held beliefs about their body. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: I, um, one of the things that you, I don't even think it was part of the L tap, it was just, um, maybe I'm part of, I took all your, um, regen sessions.
I think that's where I learned it. Mm-hmm. But you taught like, um, a liver, just like a liver manipulation. So you like test your. Arm movement or whatever, and then you like pull the four directions with the skin by the Oh, the
Anna Hartman: skin lift. Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Honestly, that might have just been on Instagram or, okay.
Maybe that was it. Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: Um, but even that, like, I've done that with people and just that like the stories and like perception people have, especially like menopausal women often will get like shoulder issues. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Frozen shoulder and that type of thing. Mm-hmm. Um, to do like just something so stinking simple.
It's like two minutes of their life and they get like range of motion back just to simply show them the story they're believing isn't true. Yeah. And like your body, it, and I try to always put it back on them and like. The wisdom of their body and what your body's capable of doing. 'cause if, if that movement is gone quickly, can you get it back quickly too?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You, you know, like you're a dealer in that
Anna Hartman: sense. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. You're giving them hope that it's like, it's not as permanent as you think it is. Yeah. So, so cool. I know we kind of got off on a tangent because we talked about that we're excited about, but, um, to like circle back, so it sounds like you came to the ltap because you were trying to filter out like how the nervous system and the viscera and the musculoskeletal system kind of all worked together, and also how to like, target it.
Yeah. Or like know when to target certain spots in your, in your sessions.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: I
Bethaney Clark: just needed some, like, I needed some type of, um, assessment to like anchor the session so it's not me guessing or like, yeah. Yeah. And a lot, I feel that a lot of, um. I don't know if I should say a lot, but I've had clients come to me and within this world of like working with post-traumatic stress, it's like, it's kind of the wild west.
And so some people have been to practitioners that it's like some projection of like, so dripping, like, oh, you're in pain. And like they wanna speak to like, oh yes, the inside of the person. It's like, well it's, I'm here because of my shoulder. So like, yes, yeah, I have a history. Yes, there's stuff going on.
My, you know, with post traumatic stress, like the body doesn't respond in traditional ways. And so these people have often been to multiple providers. Sometimes there's nothing medically wrong with them, but they're having symptoms that should be answerable by the medical community. And so, um, it was really important to me to come to them almost.
I'm a, I am a heart-centered person, but that those years of dentistry gave me like. There is a clinical, I wanted to come, I would say clinicalness
Anna Hartman: of it. Yes.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah. I wanted to come with that so that it's not just me and them. Like I don't want them to feel like you find one practitioner who like gets you and then you're like anchored to them.
I didn't want that kind of relationship with them. I wanted some, I don't know if distance is the right word, but something that felt clean. Like this isn't just me projecting or me deciding based on my life's experiences. Like I need hard and fast. Like, what is happening in your body? Can you feel it? Can
Anna Hartman: you own this?
Kinda like concrete evidence and like, I have a little bit more scientific approach about, about massage then it, it traditionally is warm and fuzzy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And the warm and
Bethaney Clark: fuzzies there. I'm still very intuitive. I still work, work with them, but just having that as the starting point, um, I just love it so much.
Yeah. And I'll tell people, I'm like, um, this is, um, I'm just gonna do an assessment really quick so we can figure out where to start treatment.
Anna Hartman: They're like, okay. Great. And actually that, I'm glad you bring that up because that's a, a question with a lot of massage therapists when they come to the classes is like, how do I fit this in a traditional massage?
My answer always is you just tell them what you're gonna do. And also if you wanna keep tradition in terms of like draping and having the sheets and like letting people, um, unrobe and stuff, like you just do run round or you do round and you do the best you can. Yep. The reassessment. Um, but yeah, speak to sort of your, the way you use it.
Bethaney Clark: My approach, um, I, I alternate depending on my client and kind of how I perceive them to be coming into the room. Mm-hmm. Um, I'll either do the standing march test or I'll do, um, I'll do the laying down.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: Um, most people I like to do, I prefer when they're on the table. And so most people, I'll just do that.
And, and that's a way for me too to like establish, um. Trust of like, I'm the practitioner and this is an assessment that I like to do. And of course I'm very sensitive to like, if people aren't comfortable in that position, yeah. It's intimidating to have somebody like over you and like, what is this? But I also want them to know, like, I'm gonna respect your boundaries and I'm gonna explain to you everything that I'm doing.
And so doing the assessment is a way for me to, to introduce them. Yeah. To my approach. Um, but yeah, I'll either do the, the standing march test or on the table. Um, sometimes people aren't coming to me with anything specific bothering them, and so I don't, I don't know. This is, you've always given us like such autonomy of how to apply the ltap.
So this is my true statement, Anna, is, um, sometimes I'll do the, the first test of the assessment. Um, I'll do the, I'll do the first two tests.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: Um, if I need to, I'll go through the viscera. Just kind of as a checklist and like see where I should start. Um, Julie gave me really good advice when I went to the in-person ltap of just isolating by quadrant.
Anna Hartman: Quadrant. Yeah. Because sometimes
Bethaney Clark: I'm like, what if I find something in this spleen? What am I gonna do? You know, like, we're gonna start at your spleen. I'm not trained in biral manipulation, so thinking of it in has been really helpful for me.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: Um, and then I can always go back to nerves, like what part of the body?
Where are those nerves in the spine? And then I can just work with the spine cupping or something along there to start it. But because I'm not always addressing, like they're not coming in with like acute knee or shoulder issues. They're just coming in for like a good massage. I'm using it more of like, where do I start to get the most effect?
Because we can, if I start my normal massage before the ltap, it's not uncommon to come apart, come across a part of the body that's like not. There's resistance to
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: Getting through the thing you wanna get through. And so if I can start on like their left foot and then, so by the time I get to the upper body, it just melts through.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: Then I don't need to necessarily retest them.
Anna Hartman: Right.
Bethaney Clark: You know what I mean?
Anna Hartman: So, yeah. Most of the, well, it's so much better too. Like, 'cause I know like sometimes when I'm getting a massage from people, it's like, you know, your, your timing is like going good, going good, going good. And then you run into that spot and you're like, shit, yep.
This is gonna take forever. And I still have like both arms in there, you know, whatever to get to. And so it's like, yeah, when you can start where the body wants, you don't run into those resistance points so much. That's, yep. So yeah. That's cool. I love, I love to hear that. Um, is there anything, um, I'm trying to think what else I kind of wanted to cover.
I mean, I guess really too is like, is there anything.
You know, well one, I don't know if you spoke to like the re you know, the kind of results you're seeing with your patients in terms of like, I mean, it's a little different from massage, right? Because some people just wanna come regularly for massage, which is great. Um, so I don't know, you know, from a results standpoint, it might just kind of be exactly what we just said is like, when you go where to start, you don't run into those like roadblocks.
Um, but then also how about results for you in terms of like, have you been able to like, raise your prices? Do you just feel more inspired by your work every day? Like, do you have a wait list? Like, you know, has it changed any of that stuff for you?
Bethaney Clark: Um. I don't, I mean, these are like borderline business questions versus like practitioner questions.
Yeah. But, so there's, I have not, I recently moved offices and it was really important to me to keep my rates the same. Yeah. Um,
Anna Hartman: but, which is fine. And I'm also, I'm like, I always tell people, I'm like, that's not the goal. Yeah. But sometimes when people start noticing they do better, they're like, oh shit, I can raise my re rates.
And I'm like, yeah, isn't that great? But yeah, people don't have to by any means. Yeah. For me, I'm just like, I love being awe inspired by every PE person I come along. I don't need to like, get more money for, or it, it just feels more fulfilling anyway. Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah. I think for me it feel like that anchor point, like for me coming from such an established field where like.
Nobody's asking you what is the point of this dental cleaning? Like, they just get it. Like this is, it's so established as like an industry that you, there, you just do things and people, there's so much to fall back on, I guess. And when I was walking into this type of massage therapy that I wanted to do, I felt like I was falling down a black hole.
I was like, there's nothing for me to rest on. There's not, the science is new. People still don't even fully accept the polyvagal theory, which is like what most of this is based on. Like, there's a lot of slippery slopes here and I don't, and I'm, I'm working. That's good. In concept in theory. And we, we just have to, you know, the next 30 years, we'll see how that unfolds, but yeah.
In the meantime, I'm touching real people with my hands and I need something solid that I can like lean back on.
Anna Hartman: Yeah.
Bethaney Clark: And so for me, if I can feel that like the nervous system's doing something, I can feel something, um, or know where I need to like start treatment. To me that was like the solid ground that I needed to just feel confident in.
Like I can stand on that. And then any other training I take, any other skills I have, I know that it's on the back of something I felt with my hands and I can like reasonably understand what is occurring on the person in front of me.
Anna Hartman: Yeah. So do you, this is a total side note only because I now I'm like curious too is um, 'cause I know you've d learned, uh, uh, from polyvagal theory, like more from just me.
Yeah. Like I know you've done all your things. Do you u utilize, um. Steven Porter's body perception questionnaire at all as like an intake and like way to track your clients? No, no. I It might be, go ahead. I'm like, that might just be like another, like objective measure that you could do to see, and even for your clients to see, um, a change in, it's basically just symptoms is basically looking at, um, your, um, reactivity of your autonomic nervous system.
Hmm. And it gives it numbers, right? Like, you know, it's like, how often do you have belting during the day, like all, all the time, or not at all? And then all the time is four points and not at all is zero. And then it can, you know, it gives you a general range of if you're in the, you know. Hyper sympathetic or the, or the dorsal vagal, like burnout.
Okay. It really gives you a good baseline. It's cool to track. So I do that in the mentorship program. I have all, everybody that goes through the mentorship program, I have them do that at the beginning and at the end. Because part of the mentorship is like doing the work in your own body to Right. Heal your own nervous system physiology so you can be more present for your patients.
And so it's like, it's really cool to see, yeah. Numbers associated with some things that are, seem very subjective sometimes of like, yeah. You know, one per person wanted their mentorship and I'm like, they're like, oh yeah, like before and after your mentorship. Like I didn't have, um. I, my dairy intolerance went back, went away.
God. Or like somebody was like, oh, I used to like stutter a lot and after your mentorship, like, I don't stutter like I did. And Wow. Just like things like that that like you are like, what? Yeah. But if we had looked, but when we look at their autonomic nervous system reactivity, it's like, oh yeah, your numbers were like so high and now they're like, so much balance, so much lower.
So, no, that's cool. If you haven't thought about it, it's something simple to give your clients that you could do, so. Okay.
Bethaney Clark: No, I like that. I, I feel like there, and maybe that's even like a good delineation, I guess for me because, um, because I do have clients that have gone through like such a medical and psychiatric like, yeah, gauntlet.
There's a part of me that like, I do want, I. Some concrete assessment tool, but I also don't want them to feel like I'm categorizing them. Oh, for sure. So I'm careful to avoid like certain language and I, I want my space to feel like, um, yeah, like it's scientifically based, but I don't want it to feel like any other practitioner they've ever been to.
Yeah. Um, I never ask about their story. I don't even, I mention post traumatic stress a lot in my marketing and like if they ask me questions before they come in, but once they're in my room, I almost never mention it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so that's, even when you're saying that, I feel like almost in a version of like, that's a little too clinical for me.
Yeah. Which is fair. I do understand. Like, I, I don't give
Anna Hartman: it to everyone. I ask them if they, I ask them, you know, especially if they're like, oh, I just have so much stress and I think, you know, the high level of stress is like part of what's driving my stuff. I'm like, well, you know, there's a. There's a questionnaire that you can fill out that would give us some baseline numbers and we could really see, you know, we could have a better idea of like, is it, is it really a lot of stress in your life or are you handling it just well, and I always tell them like, it doesn't matter.
It's more, it's, I was like, the information is for you, not for me. Yeah. It's not change. It's not gonna change what I do with you. Yeah. It's more of a, like, something for you. Keep back. Yeah, exactly. Something for you and something to track. And like a conversation starter, not a, not a, not a put you in a box thing.
Bethaney Clark: Yeah.
Anna Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: Okay. I like that. I'll, I'll, oh, thank you. I am like, yeah, open my mind a little bit to doing that. Yeah. Yeah. But also it's like.
Anna Hartman: And yeah, it's, you know, it's take it or leave it. But that is like what popped in my brain. 'cause I think it's kind of cool to see. 'cause a lot of, I like the questionnaire too, because a lot of times people don't even realize some of the symptoms that are on autonomic nervous system reactivity.
And so sometimes it's just eye-opening to be like, I had no idea that was a thing, but I, yeah, I experienced that. For me it was like, it was, one of the questions was basically like, when you're eating, do you have a hard time like breathing at the same time? Mm. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Okay. That's actually,
Bethaney Clark: yeah.
Um, my husband is like the loudest eater breather person on the planet. Mm-hmm. And I always make fun of him for it. And now I'm like, oh.
Anna Hartman: Because it's like when our, when our nervous system is all of balance. Your, your, your respiratory or your digestive system are getting different, like, you know. Inputs and so yeah, can coordinate those things.
Bethaney Clark: Oh
Anna Hartman: my
Bethaney Clark: gosh.
Anna Hartman: So, well now I feel like a bad
Bethaney Clark: person, but it's fine.
Anna Hartman: No, it's all right. You can still make fun of it for it. Here we're off topic again. Um, but I know it's been, I've been on the live now for an hour for people, so I'll kind of like bring it home, land the plane, wrap it up. But if there's anything, so what I would have asked people is like, basically like if, if somebody's on the fence about taking the online or the in-person or both course, what would you like, how, what would you say to them?
And also like, not just like, Anna's great and the course is great, and like, don't, you know, sign up more of like, you know. Things, more things like, less like, yeah, of course. Thank you. I appreciate all that. But also like, give them something new of why, if they're on the fence, why it's like the course for them.
Okay. Let me think about this.
Bethaney Clark: Um, one thing I would say is, because I am coming from such a different side, I, my perception is like physical therapy, athletic trainers, like you guys are so incredibly trained with, um, anatomy and like, I'm on the other edge of the spectrum where I feel like massage therapists are given literally like the base
Anna Hartman: mm-hmm.
Bethaney Clark: Level needed to like, not harm someone like we have. So it's up to us to like continue our education. So I'm, I'm saying that because if somebody feels like the ltap is out of reach or it feels like too. Big or like too much. Um, like I feel like I came in at a, the most basic level of education to need it needed to like apply it or grasp it.
And you do have so much information around it. Um, but you, I feel like you do hold it loosely I guess you could say. Mm-hmm. You are very like, apply this how you need to apply. And you saying that literally 1 million times gave me the comfort of like, I do not have to do this. Like, this does not have to be, my entire one hour session is not just the ltap
Anna Hartman: Yes.
And the
Bethaney Clark: application of it. I can do this the way I want. I can use it for 30 seconds at the beginning of my session and do everything else the way I want. This can inform me not, I don't have to fit into the ltap box. Correct. So that was like, so once I got like, understood that, that gave me a lot of freedom to like just take the information in, use it how I feel like it's gonna benefit my people.
Um. So that was really good. I learned so much from the online and I every time you would run a new, um, phase of it, like you are very generous with your alumni. So I would always take the additional classes like as they would come through, just 'cause new questions come up and it just reinforces. And I think I took the l the online like two years before I did the in-person.
Mm-hmm. Um, the in-person was fantastic and I'm so grateful that I like that gave me so much more confidence. And then being able to talk to Julie who has done, who is a massage therapist was really valuable. Um, so both were really great, but I feel like for me the easiest starting point was just the online.
Yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's, I don't know how else to say it. It's, I feel like it's, it's just a really cool way to see how the body works, like viewing it from that lens and when you can see someone's body change based on the information you got from the ltap is like. I don't know how to, it's like so cool.
It says it's not traditional if this, then that. So being able to look at it through that lens is like, it's cool as a practitioner to like, yeah,
Anna Hartman: I love it. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. No, it's good. Well, thank you for joining me. I really appreciate it. Thank you to everybody who's watching live or catching the recording.
Um, and yeah, I'll be putting this up on the podcast too so you can share it with anybody you want. And yeah, I'm just so appreciative of you in the community. I thank you for sharing and um, thanks Anna. Hopefully I'll see you soon. Yeah,
Bethaney Clark: sounds good. Thank you. Okay,
Anna Hartman: you're welcome. Bye-bye.